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<HEAD>
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<!-- This HTML file has been created by texi2html 1.54
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from gettext.texi on 25 January 1999 -->
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<TITLE>GNU gettext utilities - The Translator's View</TITLE>
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<link href="gettext_10.html" rel=Next>
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<link href="gettext_8.html" rel=Previous>
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<link href="gettext_toc.html" rel=ToC>
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</HEAD>
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<BODY>
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<p>Go to the <A HREF="gettext_1.html">first</A>, <A HREF="gettext_8.html">previous</A>, <A HREF="gettext_10.html">next</A>, <A HREF="gettext_12.html">last</A> section, <A HREF="gettext_toc.html">table of contents</A>.
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<P><HR><P>
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<H1><A NAME="SEC56" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC56">The Translator's View</A></H1>
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<H2><A NAME="SEC57" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC57">Introduction 0</A></H2>
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<P>
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GNU is going international! The Translation Project is a way
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to get maintainers, translators and users all together, so GNU will
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gradually become able to speak many native languages.
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</P>
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<P>
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The GNU <CODE>gettext</CODE> tool set contains <EM>everything</EM> maintainers
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need for internationalizing their packages for messages. It also
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contains quite useful tools for helping translators at localizing
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messages to their native language, once a package has already been
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internationalized.
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</P>
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<P>
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To achieve the Translation Project, we need many interested
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people who like their own language and write it well, and who are also
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able to synergize with other translators speaking the same language.
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If you'd like to volunteer to <EM>work</EM> at translating messages,
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please send mail to your translating team.
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</P>
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<P>
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Each team has its own mailing list, courtesy of Linux
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International. You may reach your translating team at the address
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<TT>`<VAR>ll</VAR>@li.org'</TT>, replacing <VAR>ll</VAR> by the two-letter ISO 639
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code for your language. Language codes are <EM>not</EM> the same as
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country codes given in ISO 3166. The following translating teams
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exist:
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</P>
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<BLOCKQUOTE>
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<P>
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Chinese <CODE>zh</CODE>, Czech <CODE>cs</CODE>, Danish <CODE>da</CODE>, Dutch <CODE>nl</CODE>,
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Esperanto <CODE>eo</CODE>, Finnish <CODE>fi</CODE>, French <CODE>fr</CODE>, Irish
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<CODE>ga</CODE>, German <CODE>de</CODE>, Greek <CODE>el</CODE>, Italian <CODE>it</CODE>,
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Japanese <CODE>ja</CODE>, Indonesian <CODE>in</CODE>, Norwegian <CODE>no</CODE>, Polish
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<CODE>pl</CODE>, Portuguese <CODE>pt</CODE>, Russian <CODE>ru</CODE>, Spanish <CODE>es</CODE>,
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Swedish <CODE>sv</CODE> and Turkish <CODE>tr</CODE>.
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</BLOCKQUOTE>
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<P>
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For example, you may reach the Chinese translating team by writing to
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<TT>`zh@li.org'</TT>. When you become a member of the translating team
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for your own language, you may subscribe to its list. For example,
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Swedish people can send a message to <TT>`sv-request@li.org'</TT>,
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having this message body:
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</P>
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<PRE>
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subscribe
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</PRE>
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<P>
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Keep in mind that team members should be interested in <EM>working</EM>
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at translations, or at solving translational difficulties, rather than
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merely lurking around. If your team does not exist yet and you want to
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start one, please write to <TT>`gnu-translation@prep.ai.mit.edu'</TT>;
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you will then reach the GNU coordinator for all translator teams.
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</P>
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<P>
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A handful of GNU packages have already been adapted and provided
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with message translations for several languages. Translation
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teams have begun to organize, using these packages as a starting
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point. But there are many more packages and many languages for
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which we have no volunteer translators. If you would like to
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volunteer to work at translating messages, please send mail to
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<TT>`gnu-translation@prep.ai.mit.edu'</TT> indicating what language(s)
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you can work on.
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</P>
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<H2><A NAME="SEC58" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC58">Introduction 1</A></H2>
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<P>
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This is now official, GNU is going international! Here is the
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announcement submitted for the January 1995 GNU Bulletin:
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</P>
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<BLOCKQUOTE>
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<P>
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A handful of GNU packages have already been adapted and provided
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with message translations for several languages. Translation
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teams have begun to organize, using these packages as a starting
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point. But there are many more packages and many languages
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for which we have no volunteer translators. If you'd like to
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volunteer to work at translating messages, please send mail to
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<SAMP>`gnu-translation@prep.ai.mit.edu'</SAMP> indicating what language(s)
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you can work on.
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</BLOCKQUOTE>
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<P>
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This document should answer many questions for those who are curious
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about the process or would like to contribute. Please at least skim
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over it, hoping to cut down a little of the high volume of e-mail
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generated by this collective effort towards GNU internationalization.
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</P>
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<P>
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Most free programming which is widely shared is done in English, and
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currently, English is used as the main communicating language between
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national communities collaborating to the GNU project. This very document
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is written in English. This will not change in the foreseeable future.
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</P>
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<P>
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However, there is a strong appetite from national communities for
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having more software able to write using national language and habits,
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and there is an on-going effort to modify GNU software in such a way
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that it becomes able to do so. The experiments driven so far raised
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an enthusiastic response from pretesters, so we believe that GNU
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internationalization is dedicated to succeed.
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</P>
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<P>
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For suggestion clarifications, additions or corrections to this
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document, please e-mail to <TT>`gnu-translation@prep.ai.mit.edu'</TT>.
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</P>
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<H2><A NAME="SEC59" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC59">Discussions</A></H2>
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<P>
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Facing this internationalization effort, a few users expressed their
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concerns. Some of these doubts are presented and discussed, here.
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</P>
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<UL>
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<LI>Smaller groups
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Some languages are not spoken by a very large number of people, so people
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speaking them sometimes consider that there may not be all that much
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demand such versions of free software packages. Moreover, many people
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being <EM>into computers</EM>, in some countries, generally seem to prefer
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English versions of their software.
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On the other end, people might enjoy their own language a lot, and be
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very motivated at providing to themselves the pleasure of having their
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beloved free software speaking their mother tongue. They do themselves
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a personal favor, and do not pay that much attention to the number of
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people beneficiating of their work.
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<LI>Misinterpretation
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Other users are shy to push forward their own language, seeing in this
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some kind of misplaced propaganda. Someone thought there must be some
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users of the language over the networks pestering other people with it.
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But any spoken language is worth localization, because there are
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people behind the language for whom the language is important and
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dear to their hearts.
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<LI>Odd translations
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The biggest problem is to find the right translations so that
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everybody can understand the messages. Translations are usually a
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little odd. Some people get used to English, to the extent they may
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find translations into their own language "rather pushy, obnoxious
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and sometimes even hilarious." As a French speaking man, I have
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the experience of those instruction manuals for goods, so poorly
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translated in French in Korea or Taiwan...
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The fact is that we sometimes have to create a kind of national
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computer culture, and this is not easy without the collaboration of
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many people liking their mother tongue. This is why translations are
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better achieved by people knowing and loving their own language, and
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ready to work together at improving the results they obtain.
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<LI>Dependencies over the GPL
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Some people wonder if using GNU <CODE>gettext</CODE> necessarily brings their package
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under the protective wing of the GNU General Public License, when they
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do not want to make their program free, or want other kinds of freedom.
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The simplest answer is yes.
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The mere marking of localizable strings in a package, or conditional
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inclusion of a few lines for initialization, is not really including
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GPL'ed code. However, the localization routines themselves are under
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the GPL and would bring the remainder of the package under the GPL
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if they were distributed with it. So, I presume that, for those
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for which this is a problem, it could be circumvented by letting to
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the end installers the burden of assembling a package prepared for
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localization, but not providing the localization routines themselves.
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</UL>
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<H2><A NAME="SEC60" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC60">Organization</A></H2>
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<P>
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On a larger scale, the true solution would be to organize some kind of
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fairly precise set up in which volunteers could participate. I gave
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some thought to this idea lately, and realize there will be some
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touchy points. I thought of writing to Richard Stallman to launch
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such a project, but feel it might be good to shake out the ideas
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between ourselves first. Most probably that Linux International has
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some experience in the field already, or would like to orchestrate
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the volunteer work, maybe. Food for thought, in any case!
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</P>
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<P>
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I guess we have to setup something early, somehow, that will help
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many possible contributors of the same language to interlock and avoid
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work duplication, and further be put in contact for solving together
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problems particular to their tongue (in most languages, there are many
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difficulties peculiar to translating technical English). My Swedish
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contributor acknowledged these difficulties, and I'm well aware of
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them for French.
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</P>
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<P>
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This is surely not a technical issue, but we should manage so the
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effort of locale contributors be maximally useful, despite the national
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team layer interface between contributors and maintainers.
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</P>
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<P>
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The Translation Project needs some setup for coordinating language
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coordinators. Localizing evolving programs will surely
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become a permanent and continuous activity in the free software community,
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once well started.
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The setup should be minimally completed and tested before GNU
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<CODE>gettext</CODE> becomes an official reality. The e-mail address
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<TT>`translation@iro.umontreal.ca'</TT> has been setup for receiving
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offers from volunteers and general e-mail on these topics. This address
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reaches the Translation Project coordinator.
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</P>
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<H3><A NAME="SEC61" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC61">Central Coordination</A></H3>
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<P>
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I also think GNU will need sooner than it thinks, that someone setup
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a way to organize and coordinate these groups. Some kind of group
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of groups. My opinion is that it would be good that GNU delegates
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this task to a small group of collaborating volunteers, shortly.
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Perhaps in <TT>`gnu.announce'</TT> a list of this national committee's
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can be published.
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</P>
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<P>
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My role as coordinator would simply be to refer to Ulrich any German
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speaking volunteer interested to localization of free software packages, and
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maybe helping national groups to initially organize, while maintaining
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national registries for until national groups are ready to take over.
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In fact, the coordinator should ease volunteers to get in contact with
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one another for creating national teams, which should then select
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one coordinator per language, or country (regionalized language).
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If well done, the coordination should be useful without being an
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overwhelming task, the time to put delegations in place.
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</P>
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<H3><A NAME="SEC62" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC62">National Teams</A></H3>
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<P>
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I suggest we look for volunteer coordinators/editors for individual
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languages. These people will scan contributions of translation files
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for various programs, for their own languages, and will ensure high
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and uniform standards of diction.
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</P>
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<P>
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From my current experience with other people in these days, those who
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provide localizations are very enthusiastic about the process, and are
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more interested in the localization process than in the program they
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localize, and want to do many programs, not just one. This seems
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to confirm that having a coordinator/editor for each language is a
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good idea.
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</P>
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<P>
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We need to choose someone who is good at writing clear and concise
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prose in the language in question. That is hard--we can't check
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it ourselves. So we need to ask a few people to judge each others'
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writing and select the one who is best.
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</P>
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<P>
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I announce my prerelease to a few dozen people, and you would not
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believe all the discussions it generated already. I shudder to think
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what will happen when this will be launched, for true, officially,
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world wide. Who am I to arbitrate between two Czekolsovak users
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contradicting each other, for example?
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</P>
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<P>
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I assume that your German is not much better than my French so that
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I would not be able to judge about these formulations. What I would
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suggest is that for each language there is a group for people who
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maintain the PO files and judge about changes. I suspect there will
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be cultural differences between how such groups of people will behave.
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Some will have relaxed ways, reach consensus easily, and have anyone
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of the group relate to the maintainers, while others will fight to
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death, organize heavy administrations up to national standards, and
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use strict channels.
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</P>
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<P>
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The German team is putting out a good example. Right now, they are
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maybe half a dozen people revising translations of each other and
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discussing the linguistic issues. I do not even have all the names.
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Ulrich Drepper is taking care of coordinating the German team.
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He subscribed to all my pretest lists, so I do not even have to warn
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him specifically of incoming releases.
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</P>
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<P>
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I'm sure, that is a good idea to get teams for each language working
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on translations. That will make the translations better and more
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consistent.
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</P>
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<H4><A NAME="SEC63" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC63">Sub-Cultures</A></H4>
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<P>
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Taking French for example, there are a few sub-cultures around computers
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which developed diverging vocabularies. Picking volunteers here and
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there without addressing this problem in an organized way, soon in the
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project, might produce a distasteful mix of internationalized programs,
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and possibly trigger endless quarrels among those who really care.
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</P>
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<P>
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Keeping some kind of unity in the way French localization of
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internationalized programs is achieved is a difficult (and delicate) job.
|
||
|
|
Knowing the latin character of French people (:-), if we take this
|
||
|
|
the wrong way, we could end up nowhere, or spoil a lot of energies.
|
||
|
|
Maybe we should begin to address this problem seriously <EM>before</EM>
|
||
|
|
GNU <CODE>gettext</CODE> become officially published. And I suspect that this
|
||
|
|
means soon!
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<H4><A NAME="SEC64" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC64">Organizational Ideas</A></H4>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
I expect the next big changes after the official release. Please note
|
||
|
|
that I use the German translation of the short GPL message. We need
|
||
|
|
to set a few good examples before the localization goes out for true
|
||
|
|
in the free software community. Here are a few points to discuss:
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<UL>
|
||
|
|
<LI>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Each group should have one FTP server (at least one master).
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<LI>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
The files on the server should reflect the latest version (of
|
||
|
|
course!) and it should also contain a RCS directory with the
|
||
|
|
corresponding archives (I don't have this now).
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<LI>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
There should also be a ChangeLog file (this is more useful than the
|
||
|
|
RCS archive but can be generated automatically from the later by
|
||
|
|
Emacs).
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<LI>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
A <STRONG>core group</STRONG> should judge about questionable changes (for now
|
||
|
|
this group consists solely by me but I ask some others occasionally;
|
||
|
|
this also seems to work).
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</UL>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<H3><A NAME="SEC65" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC65">Mailing Lists</A></H3>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
If we get any inquiries about GNU <CODE>gettext</CODE>, send them on to:
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<PRE>
|
||
|
|
<TT>`translation@iro.umontreal.ca'</TT>
|
||
|
|
</PRE>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
The <TT>`*-pretest'</TT> lists are quite useful to me, maybe the idea could
|
||
|
|
be generalized to many GNU, and non-GNU packages. But each maintainer
|
||
|
|
his/her way!
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
Fran@,{c}ois, we have a mechanism in place here at
|
||
|
|
<TT>`gnu.ai.mit.edu'</TT> to track teams, support mailing lists for
|
||
|
|
them and log members. We have a slight preference that you use it.
|
||
|
|
If this is OK with you, I can get you clued in.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
Things are changing! A few years ago, when Daniel Fekete and I
|
||
|
|
asked for a mailing list for GNU localization, nested at the FSF, we
|
||
|
|
were politely invited to organize it anywhere else, and so did we.
|
||
|
|
For communicating with my pretesters, I later made a handful of
|
||
|
|
mailing lists located at iro.umontreal.ca and administrated by
|
||
|
|
<CODE>majordomo</CODE>. These lists have been <EM>very</EM> dependable
|
||
|
|
so far...
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
I suspect that the German team will organize itself a mailing list
|
||
|
|
located in Germany, and so forth for other countries. But before they
|
||
|
|
organize for true, it could surely be useful to offer mailing lists
|
||
|
|
located at the FSF to each national team. So yes, please explain me
|
||
|
|
how I should proceed to create and handle them.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
We should create temporary mailing lists, one per country, to help
|
||
|
|
people organize. Temporary, because once regrouped and structured, it
|
||
|
|
would be fair the volunteers from country bring back <EM>their</EM> list
|
||
|
|
in there and manage it as they want. My feeling is that, in the long
|
||
|
|
run, each team should run its own list, from within their country.
|
||
|
|
There also should be some central list to which all teams could
|
||
|
|
subscribe as they see fit, as long as each team is represented in it.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<H2><A NAME="SEC66" HREF="gettext_toc.html#TOC66">Information Flow</A></H2>
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
There will surely be some discussion about this messages after the
|
||
|
|
packages are finally released. If people now send you some proposals
|
||
|
|
for better messages, how do you proceed? Jim, please note that
|
||
|
|
right now, as I put forward nearly a dozen of localizable programs, I
|
||
|
|
receive both the translations and the coordination concerns about them.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
If I put one of my things to pretest, Ulrich receives the announcement
|
||
|
|
and passes it on to the German team, who make last minute revisions.
|
||
|
|
Then he submits the translation files to me <EM>as the maintainer</EM>.
|
||
|
|
For free packages I do not maintain, I would not even hear about it.
|
||
|
|
This scheme could be made to work for the whole Translation Project,
|
||
|
|
I think. For security reasons, maybe Ulrich (national coordinators,
|
||
|
|
in fact) should update central registry kept at the Translation Project
|
||
|
|
(Jim, me, or Len's recruits) once in a while.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
In December/January, I was aggressively ready to internationalize
|
||
|
|
all of GNU, giving myself the duty of one small GNU package per week
|
||
|
|
or so, taking many weeks or months for bigger packages. But it does
|
||
|
|
not work this way. I first did all the things I'm responsible for.
|
||
|
|
I've nothing against some missionary work on other maintainers, but
|
||
|
|
I'm also loosing a lot of energy over it--same debates over again.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
And when the first localized packages are released we'll get a lot of
|
||
|
|
responses about ugly translations :-). Surely, and we need to have
|
||
|
|
beforehand a fairly good idea about how to handle the information
|
||
|
|
flow between the national teams and the package maintainers.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
<P>
|
||
|
|
Please start saving somewhere a quick history of each PO file. I know
|
||
|
|
for sure that the file format will change, allowing for comments.
|
||
|
|
It would be nice that each file has a kind of log, and references for
|
||
|
|
those who want to submit comments or gripes, or otherwise contribute.
|
||
|
|
I sent a proposal for a fast and flexible format, but it is not
|
||
|
|
receiving acceptance yet by the GNU deciders. I'll tell you when I
|
||
|
|
have more information about this.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
</P>
|
||
|
|
<P><HR><P>
|
||
|
|
<p>Go to the <A HREF="gettext_1.html">first</A>, <A HREF="gettext_8.html">previous</A>, <A HREF="gettext_10.html">next</A>, <A HREF="gettext_12.html">last</A> section, <A HREF="gettext_toc.html">table of contents</A>.
|
||
|
|
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|
||
|
|
</HTML>
|